This summer season, in Aspen, you stated final 12 months was like Alice in Wonderland. So would this 12 months be Conflict of the Worlds?
All over the world, one of many questions that appear to be dominating, significantly the European within the US press, is that if it is going to be a tough touchdown and a smooth touchdown or a recession. As a long-term investor, and this isn’t my first cycle. And it is not concerning the touchdown, it is about the place the journey begins, the place you’re when the airplane pulls up and the door opens. And we’re going by means of a time frame of as an important reset. As an investor, you concentrate on the place we have been – a interval of low inflation, globalization, margins internationally going up. Geopolitics had a sure flavour. After which the storm during the last two years, blew by means of. And with the opposite aspect of that storm, within the space that we discovered ourselves in is kind of totally different. Inflation is once more, on the minds of the West. Margins, which had been happening for many years, beneath globalization have turned the opposite approach. Questions of globalization have turned to regionalization. And a world of time the place belongings usually moved up collectively, have now advanced right into a world of dispersion of economies and asset courses. We have been like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz.
In narratology, there’s numerous units that flip up again and again, and one of many units is the storm. So the storm exhibits up in Ulysses, it exhibits up in Gulliver’s Travels and exhibits up in Harry Potter. And it typically takes characters from one world they have been to a different, most notably Dorothy and the Wizard of Ouncesand the twister. And I believe that, as buyers, we have seen this storm blow by means of our understanding of the world of previous few years, and we’re touchdown in a fairly totally different place.
Is it that stark?
I believe it is fairly stark really. For those who suppose, significantly for the final 10 years, we have had an unlimited monetary disaster, we have had a fairly constant bull market run with fairly constant rates of interest. It was a time frame the place nearly all asset courses moved collectively, which isn’t usually the case. And the market had one of many nice constructive runs for over an extended time frame.
One of many sharpest adjustments has been in globalization that appears to be transferring into some type of a reverse gear. To what extent do you see this decoupling of provide chains, China plus one technique play out?
The pendulum at all times swings perceptibly, however the pendulum was swinging for nearly 40 years in direction of globalization. For those who have a look at world commerce as a % of world GDP, it peaked about just a few years in the past to 58%. It is right down to 52%. And we’re starting to see the idea of onshoring being talked about greater than the idea of offshoring. World views have more and more been re-expressed as regional views, I believe it is really a extremely fascinating second for the regional view of Asia, we have come to spend so much of time speaking about NAFTA, the EU, however in the event you have a look at regional commerce, in Asia, its 3 times of NAFTA.
On the similar, the Concepts Competition at Aspen you stated there are three chapters in these tough instances, we have crossed the primary one, or a minimum of was being closed to crossing, In November are we at Chapter 2 or three?
I stated three chapters. The primary we’ve to recollect began in 2021. It was a really odd place, a really odd 12 months. The second act of the play, if you’ll, is resetting the multiples. For those who have a look at what’s occurred, the adjustments in rates of interest have reset asset costs. The third chapter may be can be resetting earnings. So PE is 2 issues. And we have seen P transfer lots, however analysts nonetheless have the S&P earnings up this 12 months. And but, in the event you have a look at Western CEOs, they overwhelmingly are speaking a few recession. We all know slightly higher about value now. However frankly, the market shouldn’t be low-cost by historic requirements, it is proper on historic multiples of lots lower than 12 years. However the query of what earnings, I believe remains to be a lot on my thoughts. And doubtless that’s the third chapter.
So you do not suppose regardless of the earnings persons are speaking about have not but turned over but and we are going to see extra ache within the subsequent few quarters?
Properly, in the event you search for early alerts of it — and once more, I am not an economist. However I used to be in San Francisco, the place you could not rent folks for a few many years now. There are very important layoffs of a few of the employers. Amazon,, Meta and so on. So the early alerts are that, I am not essentially predicting precisely what would come. However we all know that previously few recessions, earnings have gone down on common of about 20%. And so we’ve the world considering there’s going to be recession, but earnings projections haven’t mirrored that. And that, to me is an fascinating query at this second.
They usually’re not reflecting as a result of lots many market members nonetheless consider that the Fed will cease at some stage …
The reply is I do not know, which, by the best way, is three of an important phrases at this time from that depend. There is a tendency for folks to attempt to categorical certainty in moments like this, one of many issues I’ve discovered in my profession is there are moments the place you do not know what you do, and also you set your self up for uncertainty, as opposed to decide on precisely which end result you suppose will prevail. And, frankly, inside my world, we’re cautious with our earnings projections for subsequent 12 months. And I simply suppose everybody has been so targeted on the Fed that they perhaps have not but processed that subsequent query of the second and third order results.
However regardless of this era of turbulence, you made a reasonably daring transfer of taking TPG public.
Sure, we went public in January. It was roughly slightly higher at that time of time. The inventory has performed fairly effectively. However for me, an IPO is a financing occasion. And financing occasions are solely a chunk of the long-term historical past of a agency like ours. So it is a shift in possession. However under no circumstances was the shift in technique or shift into who we’re. You may also discover that it is a time frame, when there is a reset occurring.
Really, we have been setting ourselves up for this time period for some time. For those who have a look at the final a part of the cycle we have simply been by means of, it acquired fairly heated. And through that time frame, we have been really web sellers, we’re one of many few web sellers within the personal fairness trade over the previous few years. And we at the moment are sitting with the most important dry powder, in our historical past, as a result of this time period, is when essentially the most fascinating investments happen. And we have been positioned ourselves within the sectors that we predict are going to be essentially the most fascinating throughout that interval.
So over the last decade, it was a little bit of a danger on, danger off decade. So consider it as when danger adopted by a subsequent decade of which danger. And among the many extra complicated world, selecting sectors and areas like local weather change, for instance, healthcare, the place you suppose the sectoral dynamics will really put some wind at your again. As a agency, we have at all times been sector pushed.
You imply delicate to local weather change?
Properly, whenever you have a look at, once more, my philosophy of this specific time is, in the event you’re unsure about a few of the adjustments occurring on the planet, you determine which neighbourhoods to enter, the place you may know your least, the place the solar might shine rather less however you are much less prone to have issues. And so popping out of Covid, clearly, significantly right here in Asia, we’ve seen huge will increase in healthcare spends. Because the world understood the necessity to construct extra resilient healthcare infrastructure, extra options acquired constructed round well being tech. We’ve got been among the many largest buyers in healthcare around the globe round. We’re fairly lively right here in India. And it is an space that has very sturdy traits and hydraulics throughout the trade. And secondly, it is an space the place data issues. I like areas the place data issues. We have by no means outlined ourselves as being the most important of companies, however we wish to be amongst these companies which can be closely reliant on sectoral data.
So that you have a look at what we have performed right here in India, in healthcare, from hospitals to Mom and Little one facilities, to digital pharmacies, eye care, these are areas which have been very profitable for us. Cumulatively, we’d be the largest participant in India too. And that success has been mimicked around the globe. The second space is clearly, expertise the place we have performed 4 IPOs in India, within the final 12 months. And we proceed to consider the flexibility of expertise to form industries and form our world. And the third space can be local weather the place as , we raised the most important privately funded fund, we have clearly been lively right here in India and around the globe. We h maybe north of $120 trillion to spend on the transition. And fixing that downside is considered one of society’s biggest challenges. It is also considered one of my views, one of many 4 5 nice funding alternative that is seen over time.
You talked about local weather and I’ve just a few questions on that. You have got, an Power Transition Fund, known as the Local weather Fund. How totally different is it from the Affect Fund, which is the Rise Fund. And different such vitality transition or local weather funds that a number of of your friends KKR, Blackstone, Brookfield have?
Most strategy it from the infrastructure fund perspective. So to begin with, as you appropriately level out, we’ve a number one influence investing platform. We began in 2016. However after we took on the mandate we requested why influence investing by no means scale up? And why returns are decrease in influence investing than elsewhere. And but, we have checked out our lengthy historical past of TPG and located the offers that might have been influence investments even have led to greater returns.
However how do stability each? Returns and create influence concurrently?
To begin with, what’s an influence firm? An influence firm, beneath our definition, is totally different from ESG. ESG is do no matter you do higher, influence firm is an organization that purchase its services to deal with an issue. So an training firm, a well being care entry firm, the quicker you develop it, the extra its influence. And so in the event you discover firms which have glorious unit economics and ship earnings from on-line training firms, photo voltaic firms, and so on. The quicker you develop them, the extra they influence and the upper the returns and so, we began considering of influence investing very otherwise. The time period influence enterprise fund was coined in 2007, the identical 12 months because the iPhone, but it surely did not develop as quick because the iPhone. In 2016, the typical fund was $125 million, our first one was $2.1 billion. And so we took it out of the enterprise are into the influence space. As a result of in the event you actually wish to have world scale influence, it’s a must to take an organization and scale it in measurement, it is not concerning the concept.
Secondly, we embedded it inside a serious funding agency. So we took all the facility of TPG. And we made a chassis upon which we constructed Rise.
Third factor we did is we stated from the start, it was completely not concessioner. In our view, the early days of personal influence investing, typically, the concept was buyers would settle for a decrease return, so as to do good, we did not see that as vital. There is no have to get boxed in — You could be a compassionate and a conservative. You could be a liberal and fiscally accountable, you possibly can generate good returns, and construct nice influence firms. So we took on these issues. And importantly, we gave it a separate model, as a result of influence firms need influence capital. And all of a sudden there was a basic change within the high quality and scale. We’re utilizing the platform to create the most important C&I rooftop photo voltaic firm within the area, from India.
Primarily, 4 issues occurred abruptly, inside a two-year time frame. To begin with, the web Zero pledges. The second factor that occurred was what I am going to name the Greta Thunberg impact which means local weather consumerism. Folks began to care concerning the footprint of what they purchased. The third factor buyers started to concentrate. So pension funds, public market, buyers started to ask about folks’s carbon footprint. And so in the event you’re an organization, and your CEO is dedicated, your buyer needs it and your buyers are asking about it, then issues start to occur. And the fourth factor, expertise modified making wind, photo voltaic and EV completely price aggressive. And the market spiked.
What was lacking was a big a part of the market to finance that. So if you concentrate on the local weather world, earlier than that it had been an odd barbell construction, the place on one aspect, you had clear tech enterprise and on the opposite aspect, you had contracted renewables. However the query we have been asking is, who’s going to create the good local weather firms of tomorrow. And it is not simply renewables, if you are going to clear up the local weather downside, it is a totally different subset. So seeing that occur inside Rise, we mainly understood that the scale of the capital wanted for local weather was going to swamp the opposite areas. So we created a sister fund, Rise Local weather. Hank Paulson, former Secretary of the Treasury, joined me because the managing associate.
And it was actually fascinating, first of its variety, within the personal fairness, of that scale. And never solely do we’ve lots of the high establishments of the world, however 28 of the most important companies on the planet as effectively as a result of they have not solved their very own local weather issues. We have moved out of speaking about renewables and local weather being form of synonymous to renewables. They’re only a sub sector of what is occurring. There’s additionally numerous actually fascinating issues on the social aspect of impacted monetary inclusion. We’ve got one other spin on the spot of Airtel in Africa, known as Airtel Cash. It is a firm rising 40% a 12 months; we financial institution $22 million unbanked Africans by opening them as much as monetary inclusion.
On this local weather spectrum, how do you mannequin danger? Is it the infrastructure danger, or is the expertise dangers that you simply think about?
Our specific a part of the market is to take applied sciences which can be viable and scale them. We admire what Invoice Gates does it to breakthrough vitality ventures, however he would and we’d each say that lots of the firms he is engaged on won’t be able to scale for a time frame. I discover loads of similarities, but additionally numerous actually vital variations between the tech revolution and the local weather revolution. Every of them will have an effect on all companies, and can shift how we stay in vital methods.
Every of them goes to see a disproportionate quantity of the exercise pushed by specialised instruments and capital, identical to enterprise capital performed an vital half within the tech revolution. Local weather targeted capital will play an vital half on this revolution. What’s very totally different is that the local weather revolution is a fiscal revolution. Within the tech revolution, somebody constructed the web for you. And he simply had an concept to ship it out totally free, we’ve to construct bodily belongings, we have to throw away pc science guide and decide up natural chemistry guide. It is advisable to take into consideration main initiatives, delivering bodily belongings throughout broad geographies and so the ability units of that specific sort of investing and share lots of the progress alternatives that we noticed in expertise, however they’re totally different when it comes to how we deploy them. So our job at Rise Local weather is to assist that engine of taking bodily belongings and scaling it. And it’s a must to suppose another way. It isn’t Moore’s legislation, it is the expertise curve.
What are these alternatives in India? EV in fact was the headline transaction.
Inside India, there are two notable investments in Rise. We have performed numerous social investments in India which have performed effectively. Fourth Companion Power which is bringing inexperienced vitality into what was a fairly difficult grid. Fortunately issues have gotten higher and we’re serving to clear up that. It is a massively constructive firm when it comes to its carbon wins, after which Tata Motors. India wanted to speed up your EV penetration.
One of many issues we have discovered, form of in Silicon Valley is in the event you take a expertise and you place it in an organization and get behind it, get the incentives lined up, it tends to speed up. Tesla made progress quicker than GM within the early days. And so primarily making a separate entity allowed it to speed up in a approach is vital. However we have checked out many different issues. And I anticipate to see way more investing amongst on this space. One of many issues that’s fairly constructive is clearly, the federal government has gotten behind this problem. Within the US, we simply had Biden’s local weather invoice. And why is that vital? It creates incentives which can be a minimal of $350 billion. Most individuals say that they will be fairly greater, as a result of they are not capped. And that may speed up $3 trillion of spending. Why is that vital, as a result of typically the US as a expertise, US will push one thing down the expertise curve, which can then transfer out to the world. The EU can be dedicated about $300 billion to inexperienced vitality.
To carry down its dependency on Russia.
Yeah. Secondly, greater costs, that is good, as a result of it reduces the inexperienced premium, however you place your finger on an important factor, which I believe may be very true for India, is the inexperienced revolution is now additionally a query of vitality safety. And if you will, we’re sitting there at this time, and you are going to attempt to create vitality safety, all of a sudden, you’ve a solution proper in entrance of you, which is nice. Regionalization in some methods may even will attend doubtlessly speed up a few of the spending for the inexperienced financial system.
Has the velocity of innovation and expertise in India shocked you?
Yeah, it is shocked me. A few years in the past, one of many mysteries of India for worldwide buyers was the
. The concept that everybody knew the grid needed to be fastened, however now reforms are literally occurring on floor. It feels prefer it’s transferring extra now. You will have a greater sense of that than I however there is a sense of movement and objective. Take a look at electrical two-wheelers or bikes or E-cycles. We have been buyers within the largest ebike firm within the US but additionally India. The EV market India is definitely a really fascinating.
One of many different fascinating issues about the marketplace for electrical automobiles, as , is charging networks. However most massive components of India have a really small radius they transfer inside, and do not use their vehicles as a lot for lengthy distance journey. So dwelling charging works higher in India, as a % of journey than nearly anyplace on the planet. With the typical commute, one thing like 18 kilometers, all of a sudden, you needn’t have as costly automobile and an enormous quantity of the expense for vehicles that final additional 50 miles. And so I believe around the globe, EV adoption is pricing on the upside. It is low in India, thus far. It is 21% in China. It is excessive single digits, low teenagers within the UK.
In India of late, you have been huge on massive conglomerates. , Tatas, UPL, Shriram Group. Is {that a} acutely aware name?
I believe you are solely seeing a chunk of what we’re doing and people are likely to get extra consideration. It’s indicative of a normal pattern we’ve which is in the event you can associate with good companions and to do fascinating issues that you may create good returns. Take a look at
, proper, that is the place we made most returns. There are these are actually fascinating small firms. I believe the massive ones generally get extra observed as a result of they’re extra mature on the funding aspect, so that they’re slightly bigger. However I would not overread that is it is a device in a really, very complicated and fascinating toolbox. I’ve at all times thought personal fairness as an asset courses overperformed for a very long time. Not at all times, however that normally, which is why most buyers on the planet are growing their publicity.
However with them are you able to affect the course of company motion or simply be a passive capital supplier?
It is what we have been doing a very long time efficiently. It tells you that we should be doing one thing proper. Not too long ago, we spun out Direct TV from AT&T. TPG isn’t just a monetary investor, it helps to carry change in innovation to the businesses that we spend money on. It isn’t that we’re investing in these firms to easily carry cash, we’re additionally normally serving to them undergo an evolution themselves. Take into consideration what Tata did. Take into consideration what Reliance did once more, they’re evolving their enterprise and we’re there to assist and assist.
You are among the many first world PE teams to go actually deep into client tech. First there was a dream run after which got here the massacre. And a few of the portfolio firms are going through severe headwinds. How are you coping with this reset?
At moments of time, we undergo the cyclical adjustments, however in the event you have a look at the place it’s at this time versus the place we began, it is nonetheless doing very effectively. That is what we wish to be judged on not at a selected second. For those who have a look at the place progress has been significantly tough, it is within the both unit economics or this was an concept however not an organization and you do not see us in that a part of the expansion investing world. I am proud with how our portfolio has been holding up.
Is there a quantity that you would put to future investments in India see over three or 5 years?
Let’s examine what we have performed, 4 IPOs within the final 12 months, we have performed nearly $3.5 billion within the final two years of investments. I believe you possibly can see as many IPOs out of our portfolio within the 12 months forward. And I, if something India selecting up share in our funding exercise. I don’t predict market. This isn’t a market share sport. It is a chance construct up one.
However how does India stack up versus different rising markets How is it in comparison with China or Brazil?
It is onerous to say. I do not know what metric to make use of. I’ll inform you it is selecting up shares definitely. We’re placing extra monet right here than China in the previous few years the place we’ve been been we have been underweight China relative to the market. There have been different instances we set out India from 2012-2014. One of many issues about investing on this area is there’s instances the place you lean in or you do not lean in. And it is a time frame the place we have been leaning in India. In order that’s the place it’s selecting out share. I might anticipate it to proceed to select up share, as a result of as I journey around the globe, that is definitely the most effective performing markets within the area. It is a time frame the place the federal government is secure and guidelines have been changing into clearer. Tax charges have come down, authorities funding has gone up in infrastructure. There’s at all times challenges in any market. However usually, with the quantity of exercise we have had — IPOs investments — it tells you that it is a actually fascinating second.
What are the challenges that you simply face in Indian financial system?
One of many challenges has at all times been on this sorting itself out. There hasn’t been as a lot liquidity on exit. In order , the native markets have been shallower. And secondly, lots of the greatest belongings are owned by the household companies. We weren’t the primary personal fairness companies in Asia. The truth is, a number of household funding teams throughout Asia, primarily look lots like personal fairness companies themselves. So we would be competing with a few of the nice buyers on the planet, in Asia, on their dwelling turf. So it is a aggressive market. There have been challenges on infrastructure. And people appear to be on course.
What about ease of doing enterprise?
To begin with, investing within the numerous markets around the globe regulation and governmental intervention, is a matter at loads of locations, and I might say the early days in India it was slightly bit much less clear how the principles labored. And that has gotten clearer. The position of promoters was type of a brand new time period once I first bumped into it however that too has turn into slightly clearer. So I really feel like I am on the lengthy journey of how markets develop. The course of journey has been very constructive, significantly lately. Nevertheless it’s at all times a journey.
Lots of your friends say that, particularly for youthful firms, one of many challenges they face is the regulatory goalposts hold altering or evolving.It has occurred in gaming, fin tech, retail. From Dream 11 Lenskart and so on some can turn into utterly black swan occasions.
Have you ever paid consideration to US markets just lately on issues like gaming, issues like expertise regulation? If what the principles of the sport are, then our job is to go attempt to win. And if the principles are continually altering, it is a lot more durable to know that and the identical is true within the US. Strive investing in cybersecurity in US. That is a fairly tough scenario too to understanding precisely what the rules is, so I believe it is the slope. However as the principles of the engagement turns into clearer, buyers really feel an increasing number of snug writing ever bigger investments. And that is a part of what you are seeing out there because the funding measurement in India is growing. I can inform you from the US or Europe or elsewhere, in no market goalposts don’t change.
Columnist Ruchi Sharma wrote when a time period like Metaverse escaped from science fiction and appeared in the actual world, it belies the quick that bodily world and bodily items are nonetheless vital and are in demand.
A $1 trillion firm renamed itself for a non-revenue producing world. However one of many issues that I’ve at all times advised our workforce is, it is actually vital to remain curious and to look at this stuff as they by no means transfer in a straight line, as my professor advised me a very long time in the past. We’ve got to recollect, we put a person on the moon earlier than we put wheels on suitcases. Know-how doesn’t transfer in a logical straight line. So I am slightly skeptical, however we’ll see.
The federal government in India may be very eager to get out of enterprise, to privatise refiners and banks like . You personal banks round thd area and the world. Would you be eager to bid?
We personal financial institution, non-bank monetary companies firms too round Asia, We have been massive monetary service buyers. Right here in India, in China, the place we have been the one western entity to manage a Chinese language financial institution since 1949. We restructured a financial institution known as Korea First Financial institution. We have had a really profitable file of monetary service investing. We have performed much less of that just lately as rates of interest have been decrease and the ROEs got here down in a approach that they have been much less fascinating for us. But when rates of interest get greater, and we will doubtlessly add extra worth. As we speak, our work in monetary companies is extra within the space of utilizing new instruments to create monetary inclusion.
However in IDBI you’ve that chance. Reworking a legacy financial institution, into a brand new financial institution, utilizing expertise.
We’ve performed this earlier than. We purchased and made the primary digital financial institution in Indonesia and offered it over time. Apart from digitization, as I stated to you, we did the primary all-digital nationwide financial institution within the US which is a really well-known financial savings app. So it primarily permits and teaches younger folks tips on how to digitally handle. You’ll be able to pay your payments and spherical up and purchase ETFs so that you simply spend money on shares. So we consider in digitalization. I can’t speculate what this specific banks want, however we’re well-known for this type of work.
You talked about earnings and stuff, and clearly I sense that it’s largely US and Europe centric and extra public market centric. So subsequently, would personal markets be a safer haven now in comparison with public market funding?
To begin with, I’m clearly a professional personal markets individual. We do spend money on public markets, however we are likely to work largely with personal market buyers. I believe in a momentum market the place you’re danger on, danger off, the general public markets are comparatively advantaged, as a result of it’s straightforward to get out and in. So, I really suppose the general public markets have been advantaged relative to the personal markets during the last decade. It doesn’t imply that personal markets didn’t overperform, however relative to different many years it was more durable to overperform as a result of for a lot of the final decade, the perfect factor you would have performed is purchase an Alibaba after which simply go-go, and that’s not a very conducive marketplace for the personal market. India is doing fairly effectively on the worldwide scale. Furthermore, expressing concepts within the personal marketplace for areas like local weather, it extra conducive.
Are there 1-2 entrepreneurs in India who’ve actually wowed you? Like he’s the following Mukesh Ambani within the making?
I’m going to move on that one (laughs).
Okay, not Mukesh Ambani, however somebody who has actually impressed you. Let’s now draw comparisons.
We’ve got an Indian CEO of Google (laughs). A number of the nice managers on the planet have them born right here. The truth that we’re seeing that within the US, tells me it’s right here. The rationale I’m going to move on the query is that, I believe we’ve numerous them in our portfolio and I wouldn’t need you to jot down about considered one of them, as a result of I believe there may be… I’ve been very impressed by a technology of entrepreneurs who’re difficult themselves and the nation to suppose otherwise about what the longer term construction of the enterprise might appear to be.
The conversations that you simply hear around the globe, do you see India’s title developing way more today?
Sure. As , you stated that there’s the pattern to search for China + 1. Take ear pods, to begin with, that may be a enormous enterprise. It’s a $25 billion enterprise for Apple alone, they usually’re transferring a bunch of it right here, proper? However, it’s not simply that. In a world of make money working from home, persons are extra snug with dispersed workforces which can be a brand new shot within the arm for a lot of the outsourcing that has been performed in India. So, if you concentrate on India’s strengths in knowledge-based industries, that is I believe a fairly fascinating pattern.
The federal government scenario right here has been secure, the principles are clearer. So, I believe I hear India popping out an increasing number of as a vacation spot for capital. And, in the event you have a look at progress run charge, it’s very clear, the challenges on the entrance of Europe, the US is… persons are debating how far into recession it would go or if progress shouldn’t be there, and China progress has been constrained by COVID coverage.
For those who have a look at the place progress is throughout South-east Asia and India, is a few of the most fascinating progress that we’re seeing. The purpose is India is selecting up share within the dialogue and it’s not simply China v/s India, it’s India on her personal stead. After we began coming to Asia, the story was Asia out. Asia was going to be the workshop of the world and India by no means fairly acquired there. They by no means acquired this found out aside from IT companies. The subsequent wave of Asia was Asia consumption and and China hit that too. So for the final 10 years, everybody was targeted on that. And, now in a world of regionalization, the theme is definitely inter-Asia. So, India has that second and it’s at that inflection level of consumption. So, you’ve a double whammy occurring right here, the place it’s transferring to a regional participant the place you may get the China + 1 and also you’re at a home consumption take off level too.
